[Title slide 1. Navy blue CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo appears in middle of screen. Company website www.cai.io appears at the bottom center of the screen.]
[Title slide 2. White background with text center in the middle of the screen that reads: "Webinar On-Demand, A call to action for advocates of autism employment". The blue CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo appears underneath of this text towards the bottom of the screen.]
[Presentation slide 1. Slide features the CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo on the top left. The text "Webinar, A call to action for advocates of autism employment" is displayed below. The background image depicts several individuals in casual to smart-casual attire, seated around a table in a modern office space with an industrial design, engaging in a discussion or collaboration. The name "Anthony Pacilio" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:00:08 - 00:00:34
Anthony Pacilio
Welcome, everyone, to today's webinar, and we also have the coolest intro music, I think, in webinar history. This is a call to action for advocates of autism employment. My name's Anthony Pacilio, former Vice President of Neurodiverse Solutions at CAI. A little bit about me. My responsibilities here are to help organizations build neurodiversity programs and to lead our expansion efforts of CAI Neurodiverse Solutions.
00:00:35 - 00:01:07
Anthony
Expertise lies in managing neurodiversity recruiting efforts, developing candidate pipelines, ensuring best practices for onboarding support, training, and organizational success. A few things before we begin. I'd like to go over some housekeeping bits, if we may. If you have any questions to submit during the discussion, we ask that you use the Q&A feature found at the bottom bar of your Zoom app. There's going to be a time at the end of the discussion that we'll address as many questions as we can.
00:01:08 - 00:01:23
Anthony
In addition, you're going to find more information on the event in the chat box. So be sure to follow along with that as well. And lastly, I want to let you know that we are recording the session for future viewing. So first, let's take a look at today's agenda.
[Presentation slide 2. The slide is titled "Today's Agenda". The agenda is divided into 4 parts, numbered and listed in the center as follows; "1. 5 min | Introduction," "2. 35 min. | Discussion," "3. 15 min. | Audience Q&A," and "4. 5 min. | Wrap up." The CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is in the bottom left corner. The name "Anthony Pacilio" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
As you can see, we've got a few things that we'll be talking about today, and we're also going to be sharing with you each question visually as well.
00:01:33 - 00:02:17
Anthony
So let's turn to today's guests. Let's meet them.
[Presentation slide 3. The slide is titled "Meet our guests," featuring three circular speaker photos below. From left to right: "Brian Freedman, Director, Swank Autism Center at Nemours Children's Health" with the Nemours Children's Health logo below; "Gwendolyn Janssen, Founder at END Institute" with END Institute logo below; and “Anthony Pacilio, Former Vice President, Neurodiverse Solutions at CAI" with a "Moderator" button design below. The CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is in the bottom left corner. The name "Anthony Pacilio" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:01:36 - 00:02:17
Anthony
So first, let's meet Brian Freedman. Brian is the director of the Swank Autism Center at Nemours Children Health, overseeing clinical services, training, research, and a brand-new, super-duper neurodiversity hiring initiative, which I am excited to talk about. He's a clinical psychologist who designs innovative programs and facilitates systems change initiatives, impacting people with disabilities and their families from early childhood through adulthood. His work is conducted in collaboration with autistic people and people with other developmental disabilities and caregivers. Welcome, Brian. Good to see you again.
00:02:18 - 00:02:19
Brian Freedman
Hi, Anthony.
00:02:19 - 00:02:46
Anthony
And next, let's meet Gwen Janssen. Gwen is a nurse and leader with over 17 years of experience in healthcare, both at the bedside and in leadership. She was diagnosed with ADHD and autism in her early 30s, and has made it her mission to help other neurodivergent individuals and professionals succeed by understanding how their brains function and discovering what they need to be their best at work and in life, which is extremely important.
00:02:47 - 00:03:05
Anthony
Gwen is the author of ADHD: How to go from powerless professional to powerhouse leader, and the founder of the END Institute for Excellence in Neurodiversity to provide support and reputable resources for neurodivergent people around the globe. Welcome, Gwen.
00:03:06 - 00:03:08
Gwendolyn Janssen
Thank you so much, Anthony. I'm happy to be here with y'all today.
00:03:09 - 00:03:40
Anthony
Yeah, and thank you both for being with us here. Now we're going to get started. So over a million young adults with autism spectrum disorder, ASD, are going to be entering the job market in the next 10 years. Additionally, research suggests that teams with neurodivergent individuals may be 30% more productive than those without them. So despite making a positive impact within the workplace, it can be challenging at times for employees with ASD to ensure that their needs are being met.
00:03:41 - 00:04:13
Anthony
However, advocacy from others and self-advocacy can help make that difference. By having the tools to advocate for themselves or by having allies in their corner, individuals with ASD can feel empowered to do their best while knowing they have support necessary to thrive in the roles, and advocates and allies are called to help create a workplace that is cognizant of and adaptable to the needs, strengths, and perspectives of neurodivergent individuals, which, in turn, enrich organizational culture and enhance innovation.
00:04:14 - 00:04:50
Anthony
So in the 60-minute, jam-packed, awesome webinar, you're going to be hearing from our two experts as they share experiences as advocates for individuals with ASD within the workplace, as well as discussing actionable steps for neurodivergent employees to self-advocate for their needs within that workplace, strategies on how to be allies and support individuals with ASD through advocacy efforts, how neurodiversity intersects with other aspects of identity, and how that can influence advocacy for autism employment, and their personal stories on how they've advocated for themselves at work.
00:04:51 - 00:05:06
Anthony
So be prepared to take notes here in today's session as we're going to be sharing some key takeaways and, the most important thing, call to action through this discussion. All right. Let's get into it.
[Presentation slide 4. The slide contains the question in bold t the top, "Share with us about your role at Nemours Children's Health as the Director of the Swank Autism Center. How did the neurodiversity hiring initiative at Nemours Children's Health start?" Below, Brian Freedman is credited below with his title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner.]
00:05:07 - 00:05:31
Anthony
So we're going to begin with you, Brian. So your role at Nemours Children Health as director of the Swank Autism Center. Can you share with us a little bit about that? And two-part question. Hold that thought. Also, that neurodiversity hiring initiative at Nemours, tell me about that and how that's getting started or got started.
[The name "Brian Freedman" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:05:32 - 00:05:34
Brian
Sure. And thanks so much for having me today, Anthony.
00:05:35 - 00:05:36
Anthony
Yeah. Absolutely.
00:05:37 - 00:05:57
Brian
At the Swank Autism Center, we offer interdisciplinary services for autistic children or for those who have questions about autism. So that includes services from psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists, developmental pediatricians, and others.
00:05:58 - 00:06:34
Brian
And so, we offer diagnostic evaluations as well as treatment services, and we're located in Wilmington, Delaware, although part of our work is actually spreading training and information about autism out into the community, including to pediatricians' offices, because we also have a really awful wait list problem in our country, and it creates barriers to allowing people to get the diagnosis that they really need for accessing services and, frankly, for understanding more about themselves.
00:06:35 - 00:07:03
Brian
So in addition to clinical services, we offer training to the community and to professionals, and we conduct research here, our own research as well as in conjunction with other universities and hospital systems. And as you mentioned, we have a new hiring and support initiative for neurodivergent employees at Nemours.
00:07:04 - 00:07:40
Anthony
So the hiring initiative, so just getting off the ground. Obviously, you got some champions. It's near and dear to my heart, because, well, that's what we do for a living here. We want to make sure. And these things take time. They just don't come and you get it going. With the progress that you've made, and it's probably taken some time to get here, what do you see that initiative looking like in the future? Do you have a vision of what that kind of entails?
00:07:41 - 00:08:01
Brian
I do, although, frankly, I think that vision will be shaped even more so as we continue to hire more neurodivergent staff members and recognize neurodivergent leaders in the institution, because I think it's important that they help shape what that vision ultimately looks like, because they're the ones that have that expertise.
00:08:02 - 00:08:03
Anthony
Yeah.
00:08:04 - 00:08:46
Brian
What I envision is creating a number of different pipelines and opportunities and support mechanisms so that we're recognizing that neurodivergent people in healthcare system are not just the patients. They can also be colleagues and supervisors and leaders. And so, what that means is helping each department think about how neurodivergent people can add value to their workforce, helping them to recognize the value that neurodivergent people bring, and helping them to understand how everyday work practices might be modified to ensure that neurodivergent people can also be successful.
00:08:47 - 00:08:58
Anthony
Yeah. And I think we'll probably get into some of those things throughout the next 45 or 50 minutes here as well. So thank you, Brian. I appreciate that. Well, so, Gwen, I'm going to turn to you.
[Presentation slide 6. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "Share with us about your organization, END Institute, and your role as the founds. How has your background as a healthcare professional help you with this work?" Below, Gwendolyn Janssen is credited with her title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner.]
00:08:59 - 00:09:13
Anthony
So the END Institute and your role as the founder, tell us about that. And again, I guess a two-part question. Sorry, Gwen. How's your background as a healthcare professional kind of helped you with this work?
[The name "Gwendolyn Janssen" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:09:14 - 00:09:44
Gwendolyn
Yeah. No. Definitely. And I have to say I really love that we're putting the questions on the screen, not only for those of us that are neurodivergent. It helps keep me on track, but also, I think, probably very helpful to our audience. So great work there to the CAI team. So talking about the END Institute, it really was born out of a desire to make it much easier for the general population to access evidence-based and reputable resources and information related to neurodiversity.
00:09:45 - 00:10:09
Gwendolyn
And when we think about my background in healthcare and what my personal journey has been, really, it all stems back to the current reality that we have access to more information than we ever have historically, and it's just growing and growing every day, but that doesn't mean that the information should be used for guidance or that it's really reputable.
00:10:10 - 00:10:48
Gwendolyn
And I think that that's really important, especially because it can be so challenging for neurodiverse individuals, no matter what age or at what point in their life they were diagnosed, to find out answers to their questions. Right? Like, "A, what does this mean with this diagnosis? And what can I take away from it? How can I help myself?" And what was important to me was just really creating a repository of not only is this a safe space, but this is a space that you can be sure that the information that you're receiving here is based on research, based on evidence, and current. Right?
00:10:49 - 00:11:14
Gwendolyn
This is what we know today, because luckily, we are seeing more research coming out around neurodiversity. And I think it's important that we are not living our lives or practicing as clinicians with very outdated evidence, which I think we are very guilty of doing in healthcare as a whole. To Brian's point, not only for our patient population, but also for our colleagues, coworkers, and leaders who may also be neurodivergent as well.
00:11:15 - 00:11:40
Anthony
So with your background and being a healthcare professional, getting to that point and then, all of a sudden, understanding your journey and then getting there, the empathy level must be overwhelming at that point. You're like, "Oh, I get it, and this is why we do this." Can you talk a little bit about that?
00:11:41 - 00:12:05
Gwendolyn
Yeah. Absolutely. I think that, A, empathy is something that is a hot topic in neurodiversity anyway, because neurodiverse brains are just wired very differently. And so, I think you'll find a lot of neurodivergent people have very different experiences with a deep level of empathy that maybe our non-neurodivergent counterparts might not be able to understand or may not have experienced themselves.
00:12:06 - 00:12:27
Gwendolyn
And so, you're absolutely right. This was a journey for me that was not only self-healing, because I was not diagnosed until late in life, but it was also one that was truly a calling for me, because being in healthcare for as long as I have, it is an integral part of who I am as a person, and caring for other people has always been at the core of my life's mission.
00:12:28 - 00:13:04
Gwendolyn
And so, when you tie in neurodiversity to that, the fact that this was something that was truly such an incredible wake-up call and period of discovery for me as a person, it was very easy for me to translate that into the work that I do, because I could see just how, not only through my own experiences, but in doing research and really widening my scope to think about how we're treating patients and how we're treating colleagues, just how important it is that we are being very strong advocates, and that we are making it as easy as possible for people to access the resources they need to be successful.
00:13:05 - 00:13:15
Anthony
Yeah. Well said. Very well said. And we're going to come back to you, Gwen, in a bit, and we'll chat about some other things too. So, Brian, I'm going to hit you up here.
[Presentation slide 7. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "From your work with the University of Delaware Spectrum Scholars, how has the advocacy journey changed over the pas 5-7 years? Is it more, less, or the same? If it is less or the same, what can we do differently?" Below, Brian Freedman is credited with his title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner.]
00:13:16 - 00:13:51
Anthony
So reflecting on your experience with the University of Delaware Spectrum Scholars program, which I know very well, you've seen the early development of the students, and now seeing individuals going into their employment careers. What's different now in terms of the trajectory of advocacy over the last few years? Is it more, less, the same? And if it's less or the same, what can we do differently?
[The name "Brian Freedman" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:13:52 - 00:14:51
Brian
Anthony, the autistic and neurodivergent advocacy and self-advocacy movement has moved incredibly fast. It's been really exciting to be an ally working alongside that group, supporting that group as it has grown. I think one of the things we've seen is neurodivergent people really embracing their identity more so over the past five to seven years, recognizing the incredible strengths that they have and the value that they bring to college campuses and to organizations. And so, I think they're feeling more empowered. Unfortunately, our systems move much, much slower than the advocacy movement has moved. And so, I think it has created some tension at times, because you have a group that is rightfully becoming and feeling more and more empowered and systems that just are moving very, very slowly to make changes.
00:14:52 - 00:15:45
Brian
So I think what can we do differently is allowing neurodivergent people to share more and for organizations to embrace more about the value that they bring, the differences that they have, actively seeking out ways to reduce biases that exist in the workplace, and recognizing that neurotypical people are going to come into an experience with neurodivergent staff members and college students, not necessarily understanding how their brains work, because a neurotypical person's brain is just wired differently, and recognizing that that's okay. Having more acceptance, I think, is... If we had a lot more of that, neurodivergent people could be a lot more successful.
00:15:46 - 00:16:21
Anthony
Yeah. And I think that goes... I got kind of a follow-up here too, but as we're talking to the audience, and you probably have some employers, and you have caregivers and people who are neurodivergent as well listening, the acceptance, the education... And I would not say that it's training per se, but it's understanding that everyone has a little bit different piece inside them, and that's what makes us different, but that's what makes us great.
00:16:22 - 00:16:58
Anthony
And I think we need to explore, how do we do that within the workplace? Now, getting to the workplace, my follow-up goes... We've known each other, Brian, what, since 2016, '17. So we're almost hitting the decade together here. What's one thing that maybe needs to change, but hasn't, when it comes to building opportunities for neurodivergent children moving to adulthood, and then we're trying to get them into the employment universe as well?
00:16:59 - 00:17:28
Brian
There's one thing that I recommend most to families of teens and to autistic teenagers. It's to build and promote self-advocacy skills early on, help to support autistic and neurodivergent children to embrace their strengths, and to learn how to share with others what it is that they need, what it is that they like, and how they can benefit.
00:17:29 - 00:17:54
Brian
If we can do more of that, and encourage neurodivergent kids and their families to allow them to participate in their IEP meetings or 504 meetings, support them in taking more responsibility as a change agent in their life, and empowering them to see that they should have a seat at the table.
00:17:55 - 00:18:28
Anthony
Yeah. That's well said as well. I don't think I could say "as well" twice in one sentence, but I did. I've seen that over the course of working with colleges and universities over the past seven years, where we're trying to really say, "Hey, listen, don't need to carry their books, because once they get to the employment world, no one's going to carry their books there. They got to be able to do this on their own in some sort of capacity, and be able to speak for themselves in some capacity."
00:18:29 - 00:19:06
Anthony
That's why there are places like CAI Neurodiverse Solutions that help that along and build that support with them. Right? We're trying to go from childhood to employment. But I think taking the reins away from the caregivers and guardians and giving more onus to the individual, that definitely helps. Now, with that said, every individual is going to be different in where they are. Right? Not everybody is going to be able to self-advocate for themselves in every situation, or maybe in no situations.
00:19:07 - 00:19:32
Anthony
I think the three of us totally get that. But if we're trying to set them up for success in the employment universe, we need to ensure that we at least give some sort of basic skill set to go into that space. It's going to be a lot different. So thank you. I appreciate that. Well, so going back to Gwen, I know I'm going back and forth to you guys.
[Presentation slide 8. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "As a healthcare leader and someone diagnosed with ADHD and autism spectrum disorder, how has your personal experience shaped your advocacy work?" Below, Gwendolyn Janssen is credited with her title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner.]
00:19:33 - 00:19:46
Anthony
But as a healthcare leader, and obviously, you talked about your diagnosis, how has that kind of built your advocacy work?
[The name "Gwendolyn Janssen" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:19:47 - 00:20:28
Gwendolyn
Yeah. So I know I touched on that a little bit earlier, but I'd like to expand, if I may, and just say that while I have the benefit of being someone that received these diagnoses and, because of my healthcare background, was really able to dive very deeply into research, and I feel personally comfortable being very open about my diagnoses, I do think that it's something that we need to recognize, that we all have responsibilities to be advocates for the neurodiverse population, not only if we have personal experience in that.
00:20:29 - 00:21:14
Gwendolyn
And I think that when we talk about allyship, it's so important to remember that, yes, some of us that do this advocacy work have personal experience, but it's every person's responsibility to help us move advocacy forward. But what I will say is, for myself, I am so grateful that I was able to receive my diagnosis when I was, even though it was much later in life than I think it should have been. My personal experience really helped to echo some of the research that I was finding specific to women in the neurodivergent space that we are very often misdiagnosed or underdiagnosed or misdiagnosed completely.
00:21:15 - 00:21:48
Gwendolyn
Anthony knows this from previous times that we've talked about neurodiversity as a whole and kind of what my journey has looked like. But over the course of my life, prior to receiving these diagnoses, I was misdiagnosed with borderline personality disorder, a question of bipolar. There was anxiety and depression that was diagnosed early on, which definitely can be comorbid conditions with neurodiversity, and it's sort of chicken or the egg as to which comes first or is one related to the other.
00:21:49 - 00:22:14
Gwendolyn
But I think that walking the path that I have across my life and the experience that I have had on both sides of the healthcare field, being a patient and being a healthcare provider and a leader, it really has given me a wonderful and unique perspective about just how much work needs to be done and how important it is that we continue to advocate.
00:22:15 - 00:23:00
Gwendolyn
I think that what it boils down to is no one should have to struggle as much as I have struggled, and I'm sure the majority of the neurodiverse population has, simply because there is a lack of understanding, empathy, and resources. Right? These are things that we can very easily change. Right? It doesn't always come quickly, especially at a systemic level. However, there really aren't as many barriers as people may lead you to believe in supporting neurodivergent professionals and people just in life in general. And so, I think that my personal experience lends itself very beautifully to being such a strong advocate for neurodiversity.
00:23:01 - 00:23:15
Anthony
So following that up, so from that experience, what are some effective ways allies can support neurodivergent individuals or colleagues in their professional growth? Right?
00:23:16 - 00:23:47
Gwendolyn
Yeah. So I think that as much as possible, trying to back out of bias and removing any assumptions that we have about people's intentions or why they may be showing up the way that they are. I remember at one challenging point in my career, I was sitting in HR, and I was talking to our HR partner about the fact that I was like, "I'm very self-aware. I recognize the challenges that I have."
00:23:48 - 00:24:19
Gwendolyn
And her response to me in that moment was, "I really don't think you are self-aware," which, for any neurodivergent person, A, could not be further from the truth. Sometimes our level of self-awareness can be detrimental, because you're just constantly ruminating over what all of your opportunities are. But at the time, I had not been diagnosed yet. Right? This was pre-diagnosis. And so, I was really struggling through so much, trying to figure out why it seemed like it was so much harder for everyone else.
00:24:20 - 00:25:03
Gwendolyn
And I think there were so many assumptions by my colleagues, by my peers, by my supervisor structure that I just was not the right fit for leadership, or that because I didn't show up the same way as what other people feel like a leader should look like or should behave, that there was something wrong with me. Right? And I internalized so much of that over my career, and I'm very grateful that I have been granted the opportunity to work for some incredible leaders, a couple of really good organizations that have allowed me to continue to develop. And then post-diagnosis, I was able to lean into that a lot more and do a lot of self-growth.
00:25:04 - 00:25:44
Gwendolyn
But when we talk about allyship, our ask of the general population, and especially in the workforce, is just because someone thinks, behaves, shows up differently than you, does not mean less than, does not mean that they don't have value and that they can't bring amazing strengths and traits to your team. We talked at the beginning of the call about the statistics that demonstrate that, really, having neurodivergent team members can actually increase productivity, but it's our responsibility to support them in the ways that make sense for them, not try and diminish them or belittle them just because they show up differently.
00:25:45 - 00:26:16
Gwendolyn
So backing off of that bias, really showing up with empathy in a way that, "Hey, if I'm trying to describe something to you as far as what my experiences or what my needs are, just because they might be different from yours, does not make them any less valid and does not make me any less valuable." Anthony, you're still on mute.
00:26:17 - 00:26:42
Anthony
That is a first for me. Usually, I'm pretty good about that. All right. So the empathy piece in leaders, right? We got that. But what did those leaders that you kind of looked up to and who understood, what did they provide to you, give to you? It doesn't have to be anything physical, but what was it that made them good leaders in this space?
00:26:43 - 00:27:13
Gwendolyn
So I would say it's really the space to grow in the way that made sense for me, recognizing what my personal strengths were, and allowing me to lean into those without chastising me for the things that I am innately not as good at. Right? Not to say that it's not our own personal responsibility to always be developing as people and as professionals. Right? So obviously, you take accountability for where your opportunities are, and you work on growing those things.
00:27:14 - 00:27:43
Gwendolyn
But the best gift that I was given in my development journey is truly just the support to show up exactly how I am and the recognition for the things that I am really great at, instead of focusing on like, "Well, you don't do this exactly like everyone else." So that's this fatal flaw, right? It wasn't like that. It was like, "You're awesome at these things. I'm going to let you do that and run with it." And it was such a gift. Right? That can be so critical in the development for neurodivergent people.
00:27:44 - 00:28:20
Anthony
So for everybody listening and participating, take that nugget and run with it. Right? Strength-based. That's what you're looking for, understanding what people are good at and putting them in a position to be successful so that they can push forward and have mobility opportunities and make long careers out of it, and have rewarding work. That's what employers should be looking for in individuals. All right. Awesome. Gwen, thank you so much for that. Brian, back to you.
[Presentation slide 9. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "How do you see the role of self-advocacy evolving in the workplace for neurodivergent employees, and what can organizations do to support this?" Below, Brian Freedman is credited with his title. CAI Neurodiverse solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner.]
00:28:21 - 00:28:32
Anthony
Self-advocacy and the role of that in the workplace. What can organizations do to support it?
[The name "Brian Freedman" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:28:33 - 00:29:09
Brian
I think what Gwen was just sharing was so important, and I think it embodies where I see the role of self-advocacy moving in the future, which is one where neurodivergent employees recognize their own value, and they find ways to speak to their own value in order to ensure their success in the workplace. It can be a tricky tightrope to walk for anyone to speak about their own value in a workplace.
00:29:10 - 00:29:50
Brian
And as many people know, that is often how people are able to achieve success, and to be given opportunities to lean into the kinds of activities where they can be most successful, is when they can share with others the areas that they're passionate about, where they are strongest, and show data that shows just how strong they are in those areas. So I think individuals knowing their worth and being supported to have the language to speak to that in an effective way is really where the future is going.
00:29:51 - 00:30:28
Brian
We're no doubt going to need to continue to ensure that neurodivergent people also understand about accommodations that they can receive and the legal protections that they have. That's really been a major part of the focus to date, is ensuring that appropriate accommodations are in place, and supporting them, providing mentorship. Now, I think it's time for us to shift to speaking that much more about the real value in having a neurodiverse workforce. And there are some conversations about that, but I think we're now in a place where we can go to the next level.
00:30:29 - 00:31:11
Anthony
And this is a question, going to be for you, Brian and Gwen. You guys can both chime in, if you feel. So supporting individuals, right? A lot of talk around psychological safety, and making sure that the environment that we are creating in our workplaces are attuned to everyone. Can either of you speak to the psychological safety piece in organizations, making sure that that is a huge part of what that culture looks like? And either one of you.
00:31:12 - 00:31:49
Gwendolyn
Yeah. Brian, I don't know. Do you want to start off, or would you like me to? Okay. So I think that... I say this with all humility and also being a solutions-based person, and that's why we do the work that we do in neurodiversity advocacy. I can say, in all of the places that I've worked, and I've had a very long career, and I've been lucky to work at many different places all over the country, I have truly only had one leader that, I would say, created a culture of psychological safety, and one team that was separate from that that I would say the same in.
00:31:50 - 00:32:22
Gwendolyn
And so, unfortunately, when we talk about healthcare as an industry, we are massively archaic, which seems almost like an oxymoron, because healthcare is known for being innovative, or at least that's how we tout ourselves as an industry. But being a care provider and a professional in healthcare, we are not that. Right? We are very slow. We are so far behind the eight ball in not only keeping up, but even catching up with best practices for workforces today.
00:32:23 - 00:33:05
Gwendolyn
And so, I think that, unfortunately, psychological safety in teams and in the workplace has become something of a buzz topic, if you will, where we do a lot of lip service to it, but I think that most people are not incredibly effective about actually creating meaningful psychological safety within their teams. I have worked for far more teams where everybody says the silence speaks very loudly in your teams, and silence abounds in most of the places that I've worked, because it truly just is not safe to talk about neurodiversity or maybe even just personal needs in the workplace.
00:33:06 - 00:33:27
Gwendolyn
And so, I think that it's something that we need to be much more intentional about moving forward, and we need to be more supportive of the voices who currently are too afraid to speak up, because we say we want to hear these things, but then we're terrible about actually following through on them, and providing that support as a follow-up.
00:33:28 - 00:33:39
Anthony
So just piggybacking on that, so how do you create that psychological safety within those teams? Right? You want people to be who they are and speak up. How do you do that?
00:33:40 - 00:34:04
Gwendolyn
Yeah. I think that people say this a lot, but as a neurodivergent person, it means something very different to me than I think it means to a lot of people in being genuine and authentic. Right? Everybody talks about that. But one of the things that I've found pervasively across my career is, everybody wants you to be authentic until your authentic doesn't look like theirs. Right?
00:34:05 - 00:34:59
Gwendolyn
And so, I think that we as leaders and as organizations have to lean into humility, bite the bullet, and recognize that just because things have been a certain way, does not mean that that's how we move forward in the best way. Right? People will make derogatory comments about, "Well, no one had autism when I was a kid." Right? And it's like these things... In my book, I referenced that, actually, way back in... I forget the original date, but there is a reference to potentially either ADHD or autism back in Socrates' times, talking about patients that they saw that were more fire than water, is how they described it back in those days.
00:35:00 - 00:35:31
Gwendolyn
And so, just because we know more now, that doesn't mean that these things are new or that they don't deserve our attention and our respect in the workplace. And so, when we think about what does it mean to create psychological safety, it means looking within yourself and recognizing why and how it makes you uncomfortable when people show up differently than you do, and why it can be so difficult for us to recognize that strength comes in a lot of different forms. Right?
00:35:32 - 00:36:02
Gwendolyn
So, Anthony, earlier, when you talked about strength-based team building and organizational approaches, and especially to hiring, to Brian's point, it is so important that we... that humility piece of it, that not everyone needs to look like us or operate like us, or do the things like we do in order to be great. And we need to get comfortable being uncomfortable with the fact that people need different things than we might or show up in different ways than we do.
00:36:03 - 00:36:19
Anthony
Well, we have our first mic-drop moment of the webinar. That was awesome. Truly well said. Well, Gwen, I'm going to stick with you on this next one. Neurodiversity-
[Presentation slide 10. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "How do you see neurodiversity intersecting with other aspects of identity, and what implications does this have for workplace advocacy?" Below, Gwendolyn Janssen is credited with her title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner. The name "Gwendolyn Janssen" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:36:20 - 00:36:21
Gwendolyn
Brian, I'm so sorry. Did you have something that you wanted to add?
00:36:21 - 00:36:22
Anthony
Oh, yeah. Sorry about that, Brian.
00:36:23 - 00:36:30
Gwendolyn
I apologize. I was so lengthy and long-winded. That's a terrible trait of my own, and I apologize. So please, I definitely didn't mean to steal the mic from you.
00:36:31 - 00:37:20
Brian
It was not long-winded at all. It was an incredible answer. And the only thing I'll add is, I think there's a responsibility for leaders to stand up and talk about this often. I think that's how you're going to take some of those next steps in initiating culture change in the organization, especially white, male, cis, neurotypical leaders. We need to hear from them. That is so critical. You can take a bottom-up approach to these things, and I think that's how it often happens, which is great. And we need leadership from the top as well.
00:37:21 - 00:37:45
Anthony
Sure. And I'm all about the top-down and bottom-up approach if they all can meet in the middle and intersect. Segue to the question of intersecting with other aspects of identity, when Brian was talking about it, and what implications does this have for advocacy in the workplace? And that's Gwen. I'll give you that one.
00:37:46 - 00:38:25
Gwendolyn
Yeah. So I think this is a really great question, and it allows us the opportunity to shift perspective a little bit maybe for people that are not as familiar with neurodiversity work or what the reality of being a neurodiverse professional might look like. And this is very personal to me. So what I will say is, for me, as a healthcare professional and a leader, you cannot separate neurodiversity from identity, because identity is how we see ourselves and how we show up and interact with the rest of the world.
00:38:26 - 00:39:05
Gwendolyn
And we sometimes fall into the trap of viewing neurodiversity as this nebulous concept or just this list of traits that people have, like quirky or stuff like that that we kind of attribute to people that are neurodivergent. But realistically, neurodiversity is scientific. Right? This stems in a difference in the way that our brains are wired, in our neurochemical balances, which then translate to behaviors and attributes that the rest of the world sees.
00:39:06 - 00:39:42
Gwendolyn
And so, when we talk about identity, I think that people will often say, because I've been accused before of like, "Oh, after your diagnosis, you made being AuDHD," which is the combination of ADHD and autism spectrum disorder, "your whole identity." Right? And it's like, "Well, yeah, because that's who I am. That is how my brain is wired." And I can't talk about myself, my experiences, and I can't advocate for the neurodiverse community without recognizing that neurodiversity truly is completely woven in every part of my identity. Right?
00:39:43 - 00:40:28
Gwendolyn
It doesn't define who I am, but it is an innate part of my identity that will explain a lot of things, and it helps me to understand how I can be my best. And so, I think it's important that we don't think about neurodivergent people as other than. Right? I've talked about this before in the sense that when we think about physical diversity, when we talk about DEI efforts, a lot of times, we talk about inclusion of all different races and religions and sexual orientations and other types of identity, and we cannot continue to view people that are part of these groups as other. Right?
00:40:29 - 00:40:58
Gwendolyn
This is neurodiversity. I think realistically, as the research continues, we will probably find that there is no such thing as neurotypical, or maybe we'll have a different definition for it. And eventually, what's currently known as neurotypical will just be a different diagnosis, because there are so many different neurotypes. So from my perspective, I truly believe that identity and neurodiversity are very deeply intertwined.
00:40:59 - 00:41:20
Anthony
Okay. I think that's a valid answer to the question. I think I could talk about that for another 25 minutes. There's so many different pieces to kind of pull out of that. All right. We're going to go... A dual question for both Brian and Gwen here.
[Presentation slide 11. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "What does advocacy look like for neurotypical caregivers or parents? When does the responsibility shift from them to neurodivergent individuals for self-advocacy?" Below, from left to right, Brian Freedman is credited with his title, and Gwendolyn Janssen is credited with her title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown the bottom left corner.]
00:41:21 - 00:41:44
Anthony
What does advocacy look like when it comes to the neurotypical caregiver or parent, and obviously, you can see it's a two-part question here, Gwen and Brian, when there's a shift of putting ownership from parents to neurodivergent individuals in terms of that self-advocacy? Brian, I'm going to let you take the reins on this one.
[The name "Brian Freedman" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:41:45 - 00:42:22
Brian
Sure. So the approach we take in our clinic when we're delivering a diagnosis the first time to a family is to, from the beginning, ensure that that family is understanding the strengths of their child and the strengths that they have because they are autistic. I think one of the most important parts of advocacy for families is helping their child to embrace their autistic or neurodivergent identity, in the way that Gwen was just describing.
00:42:23 - 00:42:53
Brian
And so, we want these identities to start forming from early on, and not have children look at their diagnoses as being solely connected with weaknesses or deficits. Their diagnosis is part of who they are. And so, yes, it includes challenges they might have as well as strengths, and we do not do a good enough job in society of promoting those strengths.
00:42:54 - 00:43:18
Brian
So I think that's a really important part of the advocacy that we're spending a lot of time talking about. And then the responsibility shift occurs... Well, it occurs dramatically when a teenager turns 18, and now, all of a sudden, whether they're going off to college, getting a job, now they are responsible for speaking for themselves.
00:43:19 - 00:43:50
Brian
So that speaks to the real importance of, early on, helping to build those self-advocacy skills, and purposefully thinking about the role that that child's going to play in learning about how to speak about their needs, how to speak about their strengths, taking responsibility, if they take medication, for learning about the medication they're taking, making decisions about it and taking it, and being actively responsible around day-to-day responsibilities.
00:43:51 - 00:43:56
Anthony
Yeah. That's awesome. And Gwen, anything to add on that one?
00:43:57 - 00:44:24
Gwendolyn
Yeah. No. I would just say that it's so important, the language that we use when we talk about self-advocacy and advocating as caregivers and parents. Right? So I personally do not have any children, but I have a nine-year-old nephew who has hyperactive and impulsive ADHD, because there are three subtypes, for any of you that didn't know, but that's a conversation for a different time.
00:44:25 - 00:45:05
Gwendolyn
And I have watched, over his lifetime, the challenges that we have gone through with not only his healthcare providers, but also teachers and people in the school system, even trying to put in those plans in place. It often seems like he is viewed as a burden more than someone that just needs different support. And I've seen for him individually that we work really hard to teach him a lot about the way that his brain works, and using language that ties back to the presentations that you see as part of ADHD.
00:45:06 - 00:45:35
Gwendolyn
But being nine, obviously, that's still something that is a work in progress. And I can tell you, for him, so often, we end up... He's in the nurse's office at school complaining of a stomachache, because he doesn't know yet how to really speak to the fact that, "Oh my goodness, my brain is going 100 miles a minute, and if I sit in this classroom one more second, I am going to explode, because this is not the learning environment that is supportive of my neurological and physical needs."
00:45:36 - 00:46:13
Gwendolyn
And so, I think that that does go back to advocacy in the workplace. But when we talk about what it means for self-advocacy for neurodivergent individuals, the education for them, for their caregivers and parents, and for anyone who might interact with them to be supportive of when they're saying like, "Hey, I need to take a lap," or "I need to stand up at the back of the room because I can't sit," or "I need to doodle during this meeting, because that actually helps me pay attention," instead of coming across as something that is seen as being distracted. Right?
00:46:14 - 00:46:47
Gwendolyn
So using the language in a way that aligns with neurodiverse presentations, but also so that we can help those around us, whether it's our kids, their care providers, or our own self-advocacy as we transition into higher education and the workforce. Those around us need to be supportive of when we're trying to describe what our needs are, that we're making sure that they align well with those kind of neurodivergent presentations.
00:46:48 - 00:47:00
Anthony
Perfect. And now we can get to the last question before we get to Q&A, which we have some questions out there, and I encourage people to write in their questions as well.
[Presentation slide 12. The slide contains the question in bold at the top, "What resources or tools do you recommend for organizations to better support and advocate for their neurodivergent employees?" Below, from left to right, Brian Freedman is credited with his title, and Gwendolyn Janssen is credited with her title. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown the bottom left corner. The nanme "Gwendolyn Janssen" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:47:01 - 00:47:17
Anthony
So last question for you both, the final takeaway of sorts for the audience here. What resources or tools do you recommend for organizations looking to support and advocate for their employees? I'll go with Gwen first.
00:47:18 - 00:47:49
Gwendolyn
Oh, sure. And I say this a lot, because I don't think it can be said enough. Please, please, please rely on reputable sources. Right? Make sure that you're doing your research, and the places that I always guide people to at the very beginning are my top three heavy hitters that I know for certain are using evidence-based information, but also in easily digestible ways. Right? They're presenting it in a way that you don't have to be clinical to be able to use the information.
00:47:50 - 00:48:17
Gwendolyn
And I can send this to y'all, Anthony, after so that if it's a resource that we want to share on social media, so that people can link to these after the presentation. But CHADD, so C-H-A-D-D. It was originally for children and caregivers with ADHD, but they have absolutely expanded their work to talking about autism as well, and it's a great just general neurodiversity resource.
00:48:16 - 00:48:46
Gwendolyn
ADDA, which is for adults with attention deficit disorder, but also a great resource for parents, for caregivers, for teachers, for organizations to just learn about neurodiversity as a whole. And then ADDitude magazine. It's an online publication, and it's A-D-D, not A-T-T, like for attitude. They have such an incredibly diverse amount of resources and information. You can go on and just search for different articles. Right?
00:48:47 - 00:49:23
Gwendolyn
So say you have a specific topic that you want to know more about, like, "Hey, I saw on TikTok that this diet is going to solve my kid's ADHD." Right? You can google nutrition and ADHD, or not Google. Excuse me. Put in the search on ADDitude, nutrition and ADHD, and it will pop up with a whole bunch of articles. And what I really like about all of those sources is that, A, they are staying very current in the most recent evidence that's available. So you're not looking at stuff that we practice maybe 15, 20 years ago. And again, it's easily digestible. So those are three great resources that I always recommend.
00:49:24 - 00:49:27
Anthony
Good. Brian, same question to you.
00:49:28 - 00:50:21
Brian
Yeah. I would say, in addition to what Gwen mentioned, I think your best resource are going to be your neurodivergent employees. So I would look to them and incorporate their feedback in any sort of supports or systems that you are building. That's going to be critical. In addition to that, I often point organizations, and we utilize something called the Autism @ Work Playbook. It was created by several companies. Anthony was actually a part of its creation, and I believe it's also now housed on the website for an organization called Disability:IN, which is also a great organization to look for, and to connect with other companies that are working hard to create an inclusive workforce.
00:50:22 - 00:50:34
Anthony
Awesome. Well, thanks for the mention. Appreciate that. All right. So we got through the questions that I wanted to ask both of you.
[Presentation slide 13. The slide is blue with white text in the center that reads “Audience Q&A”. CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo is shown in the bottom left corner. The name "Anthony Pacilio" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:50:35 - 00:51:10
Anthony
So now, we've allotted some time for the audience to submit their own questions for both of you. And the first question, take a deep breath. It's for both of you, actually. So the question is, "What strategies can neurodivergent professionals use to understand and leverage their strengths in the workplace?" So that's kind of the strengths in the workplace. How do they leverage it? And then kind of the follow-up to that, "What are some of the biases that they're facing at work?" So who wants to take it first? Gwen, do you want to go give it a shot?
00:51:11 - 00:51:40
Gwendolyn
Sure. Yeah. So I love that we're bringing up in this question that neurodiversity is not and should not be a cookie-cutter approach. Right? When we think about autism spectrum disorder, when we think about ADHD or the many plethora of other current diagnoses that fall under the neurodiversity umbrella, you can't take a one-size-fits-all approach to supporting all of your ASD employees and all of your ADHD employees.
00:51:41 - 00:52:11
Gwendolyn
And so, for individuals to understand what their strengths are, it takes a lot of reflection and introspection. Right? It's, "What are the things that are innately not challenging for me?" Right? You may get these things done 10 times faster than anyone else, and you're waiting for everyone else to catch up. Right? Meanwhile, you might, on the flip side, be behind in all of your emails because that's not something that you're good at. Right? And so, there is a personal element to it to be able to assess your own strengths.
00:52:12 - 00:52:38
Gwendolyn
But another thing that I will say is because sometimes it's pretty common for those that are neurodivergent to not be as good about identifying positives about themselves and their performance in the workplace. And so, another avenue that I think is always a good one is finding someone that you respect and trust, and asking them for feedback on what your strengths are. Right?
00:52:39 - 00:53:04
Gwendolyn
That can also be another avenue for you to identify what are some of the things that you're good at, because you might think like, "Oh my goodness, I'm terrible at everything. I can't keep up with everybody. Everyone else does better than me. Am I even supposed to be here?" Meanwhile, people are looking at you and they're like, "Man, they're a rock star." And you're like, "Wait. Me?" Right? So that's another reflection. And then reaching out to people that you trust and respect to provide you with that feedback as well can be helpful.
00:53:05 - 00:53:08
Anthony
Gotcha. And what about the biases? Right?
00:53:09 - 00:53:45
Gwendolyn
Yeah. So I think that one of the things that we find a lot is that neurodivergent people will often have a very different emotional spectrum than those that are not neurodivergent. I hate using the term neurotypical. So realistically, what we will often find is that, whether it's an adult that might be experiencing what is, in my opinion, a little bit derogatory, but we call them meltdowns in autism spectrum disorder. We see that in children, but that also can absolutely happen in adulthood.
00:53:46 - 00:54:08
Gwendolyn
It's this processing of emotions that can be very challenging, because often, we'll feel them much more deeply, whether it's happiness, sadness, anger, et cetera. And so, the expression of those in the workplace can often lead to this bias of like, "Oh, that person is not emotionally intelligent," or "They don't have good control," or "They are just not professional. They're not showing up as a professional."
00:54:09 - 00:54:44
Gwendolyn
And those are simply not true. It just means that we've reached a point that I have gone so long without having my needs met, that the only way that I'm able to process this information is now to just sort of have this very overt emotional response to these triggers or this lack of support. And so, I think that that's a very common bias that we see, and it really stems from the fact that, in general, the professional space and, often, the educational space is not one that is innately supportive of the neurodivergent brain.
00:54:45 - 00:54:47
Anthony
Brian?
00:54:48 - 00:55:27
Brian
I thought Gwen's responses were great. And so, just to punctuate a couple of things that she mentioned, when it comes to identifying strengths and strategies that can be used, I totally agree, finding trusted others. I think that's part of the reason that building some sort of mentoring system into your organization or encouraging individuals to find mentors out in the community is really critical, because it's going to be those mentors who hopefully will be the type of person who can help that neurodivergent person understand their own strengths and help them strategize about how they can articulate that to others.
00:55:28 - 00:56:02
Brian
I think when it comes to biases, the main bias that I often see, in addition to what Gwen mentioned, is around, just generally speaking, low expectations, assumptions that a person can't, without giving them the opportunity to try. And I think another bias that's faced is, as a society, we tend to equate communication abilities with intelligence, and the two are not equivalent, but that's often what we see.
00:56:03 - 00:56:39
Brian
The other shift that's happening among autistic people is a better understanding that there are more jobs for autistic people in an organization than IT jobs. I think for a long time, that was kind of the focus of many organizations. And fortunately, we're starting to understand better or we're starting to listen to more autistic people and recognizing that, in fact, their interests are just as varied as any other group. And so, opening up some of those pipelines, but I think that sometimes is a bias as well.
00:56:40 - 00:57:05
Anthony
No, absolutely. I appreciate that, and I think we have time for one more question. We've got a couple minutes left. Gwen, I'll give you this one. So you're great at telling the personal stories here, but is there a time when you successfully advocated for yourself at work and the impact that it had? And I know we only got a couple minutes here, but I would love to give you the opportunity to talk about that.
00:57:06 - 00:57:37
Gwendolyn
Yeah. No, absolutely. So I think for me, post-diagnosis, I have been very open about my neurodiversity. And so, some of the things that I've been able to successfully advocate for at work are very minimal but very impactful for me. Right? I wear noise-dampening earphones or, excuse me, earplugs a lot at work. So they're not headphones. They don't play music, but they help to diminish the sort of background noise, and it helps me stay focused. Right?
00:57:38 - 00:58:12
Gwendolyn
And so, just sort of talking about that in a way that it doesn't appear to others that I'm trying to tune them out. Right? If anything, it's helping me stay more focused. During meetings and whatnot, I talk very openly about, "Hey, if I go and stand in the back of the room," or need to kind of walk back and forth just to sort of help me stay focused, that's something that I've been supported to do. So it's little things like that in my professional life that I feel like, for me, have been positive accommodations that I've been able to advocate for.
00:58:13 - 00:58:26
Anthony
That's awesome. And what a great note to end on. I mean, we had 58 minutes of just pure gold in this webinar.
[Presentation slide 13. Slide features the CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo on the top left. The text “Thank you for attending today's webinar! To learn more, visit www.cai.io/neurodiverse-solutions” is displayed. Below that, the text "Upcoming LinkedIn Live Event. Empower, elevate, excel: Personal journeys of neurodivergent leaders." Below that, from left to right, shows a calendar icon with text "Tuesday, Oct. 1st" and clock icon with text "11:00 - 11:30 AM ET". The name "Anthony Pacilio" appears in the top right corner of the slide, alongside a photo of a talking head, indicating the speaker.]
00:58:27 - 00:58:43
Anthony
Unfortunately, our time here today is over, and I'd love to thank Gwen and Brian for joining us today and sharing their insights with us. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with both of you, as always. I'd love to thank the audience for their participation and their attention.
00:58:44 - 00:59:02
Anthony
And later, we're going to be sending everyone that attended a recording of this event to share with your colleagues or peers. In addition, we'll be sharing a post-event survey for you to share with us your thoughts about today's event, and please fill that out and share back with us. We appreciate that, and thanks in advance.
00:59:03 - 00:59:27
Anthony
And in the meantime, if you enjoyed today's event, we're going to be having a LinkedIn Live event on Tuesday, October 1st, from 11:00 to 11:30 Eastern Time. We're going to be kicking off National Disability Employment Awareness Month with Kym Benford of JLG and Rex Johnson of our own CAI, talking about their personal journeys as neurodivergent leaders in the workplace.
00:59:28 - 00:59:50
Anthony
The link to register has been shared in the chat, and we'd love for you all to join us. And lastly, if you're interested in learning more about CAI Neurodiverse Solutions, or you know somebody that is, visit our website at cai.io and fill out our contact form. So thank you all for joining us here today, and have a great rest of your day.
00:59:51 - 00:59:55
Gwendolyn
Thank you, Anthony. Thank you, Brian. Thanks, everybody.
[Closing slide 1. Blue CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo appears in middle of screen. Company website www.cai.io appears at the bottom center of the screen]
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Advocates and allies are called to help create a workplace that is cognizant of and adaptable to the needs, strengths, and perspectives of neurodivergent individuals. Watch this on-demand webinar and learn from 2 experts who share their experiences as advocates in the workplace. If your company is interested in working with CA Neurodiverse Solutions, contact us today.
