[Navy blue CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo appears on screen with white background, with www.cai.io below in black.]
[The following text is shown in order: Webinar on Demand; Empower, elevate, excel: Personal journeys of neurodivergent leaders; the navy blue CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo.]
[The full screen is Anthony Pacilio, wearing black rimmed glasses and a navy blue shirt. In the bottom left-hand corner, there is a nametag that says "Anthony Pacilio | CAI Neurodiverse Solutions" and a white CAI Neurodiverse Solutions logo in the bottom right-hand corner.]
00:00:08 - 00:00:51
Anthony Pacilio
Hi, everyone, and welcome to today's LinkedIn Live Event, Empower, elevate, excel: personal journeys of neurodivergent leaders. Also, I'd like to note that October is National Disability Employment Awareness Month, otherwise known as NDEAM. My name's Anthony Pacilio, former Vice President of Neurodiverse Solutions at CAI. Little bit about me, my responsibilities here to help organizations build neurodiversity programs and help lead our efforts of CAI Neurodiverse Solutions, and a little bit of my expertise lies in managing neurodiversity recruiting efforts, developing candidate pipelines, and ensuring best practices for onboarding support, training, and organizational success.
00:00:52 - 00:01:08
Anthony
So before we begin, I'd like to take a moment to let you know that we are recording this session for future viewing. So if you have any questions throughout today's discussion, feel free to add it to the chat, and we're going to follow up accordingly to these questions after we're done with the event.
00:01:09 - 00:01:59
Anthony
So let's start by talking a bit about today's topic, and as I stated earlier, October is NDEAM and we recognize the importance of providing access to employment opportunities for all, including individuals with autism spectrum disorder and other neurodiverse conditions. And when given the chance to not only acquire a job, but also to advance and grow professionally within our organization, the lives of neurodivergent individuals can be greatly improved, and businesses that embrace autism employment and put the resources into retaining, nurturing, and upskilling their neurodivergent colleagues have a lot to gain, especially when it comes to leadership. And neurodiversity can serve as a competitive advantage, as we've talked about numerous times, playing a critical role in fostering innovation while elevating organizational success.
00:02:00 - 00:02:36
Anthony
In these next 30 minutes, you're going to hear from Kym Benford of JLG and Rex Johnson of CAI as they share their firsthand experience as neurodivergent leaders within the workplace, as well as discuss testimonials of their personal career journeys to becoming leaders, insight on how to best support and champion neurodivergent employees within the workplace, how inclusive leadership practices like empathy and communication can make an impact, and advice for neurodivergent individuals looking to advance in their careers. So let's go ahead and meet our guests, and we're going to lead with Kym.
[Anthony's screen becomes a bit smaller and moves to the left. Kym Benford's screen shows up on the right-hand side. Her nametag in this screen's bottom left-hand corner reads "Kym Benford | JLG". Anthony's nametag disappears, and Kym's enlarges in the bottom left-hand corner for a brief few moments as she's introduced and reads as "Kym Benford, Global IT Director for Advanced Analytics, JLG".]
00:02:37 - 00:03:06
Anthony
Kym is a global digital technology leader focused on data science, advanced analytics, and artificial intelligence initiatives that drive tangible value to JLG business areas. And throughout her nearly 40-year career, Kym has led high-performing teams of all sizes and geographic locations. She's passionate about the Oshkosh People First culture in treating everyone with, of course, great kindness and great respect. Thanks for joining us, Kym. I appreciate having you.
00:03:07 - 00:03:08
Kym Benford
Absolutely. Thank you.
[Anthony's screen moves to the upper left-hand corner. Kym's screen moves to the upper right-hand corner. Rex Johnson's screen pops up in the bottom middle area of the screen. His name tag reads "Rex Johnson | CAI". All nametags disappear except for Rex's, which enlarges in the bottom left-hand corner for a brief few moments as he's introduced and reads as "Rex Johnson, Executive Director, Cybersecurity, CAI".]
00:03:09 - 00:03:33
Anthony
And next up, my friend Rex. Rex is the cybersecurity practice lead for CAI. He has over 30 years of senior-level management experience encompassing IT, cybersecurity, privacy, incident response, digital forensics and analysis, and enterprise risk management. Rex is openly neurodivergent and works to help other neurodivergent individuals into cybersecurity roles. And thank you for joining us, my friend.
00:03:34 - 00:03:35
Rex Johnson
Great to be here.
00:03:35 - 00:04:01
Anthony
All right. So we have quite the discussion with you both over the next 20 minutes or so, so let's get to it. Kym, I am going to start with you. So can you share with us your personal journey to becoming the global IT director at JLG? And it's a two-part question, I guess. What were some of the challenges that you might've faced along the way and how did you overcome them?
00:04:02 - 00:05:29
Kym
Sure. Thanks. Yeah, so I started my career actually in the accounting field and pretty quickly decided that that wasn't going to be a long-term goal for me, so I moved over into the programming space, which was kind of interesting because 40 years ago, that was not... Either you were writing computer compilers and decompilers, and it was quite candidly a man's world. So for me, my 40-year career almost all in manufacturing has been a bit of a journey in that I've been different in that I was a female and I handled things differently. I was a little more empathetic, and even though I had good technical skills and good problem-solving skills, I always seemed to come up against the idea that I was a little more creative, a little more softer. So fortunately because I was good enough at doing the job I needed to do, I had the opportunity to advance into leadership roles, which then really allowed me to take a balance between the technical and the people side. And so I've found most of my career I've been the one that everybody put out in front to be kind to others, to figure out if people were happy or not happy, so it's been a really great journey and I've loved every minute of it.
00:05:30 - 00:05:57
Anthony
So you talked a little bit about being a female in the industry and doing this for X number of years. Was there... We talk about masking a lot, not a pretend piece of who you are, but you're not letting other people in. Was there a little part of that that you had to kind of put in there over the past 40 years?
00:05:58 - 00:06:45
Kym
Yes, and I think that the best example I have, and it's probably maybe a little PC, but in the manufacturing space there was a lot of four-letter word usage, a lot of boys' club activities, and I found that the best approach sometimes was to fit in a little bit. It's interesting over the years as the climate has changed for women in the workspace that those things are no longer okay. I still look at them and say they got me to where I got, but I love the idea that not everyone has to fit into those molds anymore, and that includes in this neurodiversity space as well.
00:06:46 - 00:07:14
Anthony
Yeah. Yeah, no, I can certainly appreciate that. I appreciate the answer to that. And Rex, kind of a similar question, can you take us through your journey to becoming the executive director of cybersecurity here? And I guess the follow-up to that is what milestones or turning points do you consider kind of the pivotal piece in your career to becoming a leader?
00:07:15 - 00:08:05
Rex
Well, obviously when I started my career I was not openly neurodivergent. I couldn't really do that because I started my career in the army, and I started as an enlisted man and I went through ROTC and got commissioned, so I became an officer. So one good thing about the army and the military in general is that as a structure and a routine, and that really helped being a neurodivergent person, having that. I also learned a lot about who I was and that I could take on a lot more than I thought I could. Airborne and ranger school especially were key to helping me develop some confidence. Battalion command I had in the reserves later on when I made lieutenant colonel also gave me a chance to really exercise some things that I've learned. I will say I've seen the best and the worst leaders in the military and some great examples.
00:08:06 - 00:08:54
Rex
In the 1990s, I got out of active duty and I entered into the business world, Anthony, and I got to tell you, as I was kind of learning my way I had a little bit of communication challenges, but a gentleman by the name of Ron Ferguson, I don't know if he knew I was neurodivergent, but he knew there was something in me that he saw. He really was a great mentor to me, and I will tell you a lot of the things I've learned about success in business is because of Ron. He's passed away, but he had quite an impact on me, gave me the opportunities to really excel in business. Capgemini gave me some great opportunities, and when I went to Deloitte about 20 years ago, that's when somebody tapped me on the shoulder and said, "Hey, you're a technical kind of guy. Why don't you give this cybersecurity thing a go and see if it has any legs?" And I've been in cyber ever since.
00:08:55 - 00:09:31
Anthony
So you're talking about the military, and maybe trying to assimilate into the military being neurodivergent can be, I'm assuming but I don't want to assume, can be challenging because you need to figure out how to progress up the ladder way back in the day without offending anybody or getting under someone's skin. How did you maneuver and be able to do that so well?
00:09:32 - 00:10:26
Rex
Well, thing I can tell you about the military in the '80s and '90s and probably still a little bit today is bluntness and directness is pretty much the way things are. If you've ever seen movies about people going through basic training, they're not kind. They are very direct, and you can use that to your advantage. But you are correct. There are some things you learn, and as you gain an understanding and empathy and gain some emotional intelligence, that's what I mean when I saw the best and worst of leaders, so I saw some people I wanted to be like and some that I didn't. And as I learned to emulate those qualities, that's what helped me eventually rise to become a battalion commander and a leader. And I remember the feedback a lot of my soldiers said, "Sir, you always seem to get me." Which was really a great comment to get from people that were serving with you.
00:10:27 - 00:10:54
Anthony
That's awesome. Well, I appreciate letting us into a little of your military movement there. And now Kym. So what specific support mechanisms or maybe resources have been most beneficial to you as a neurodivergent leader in your career and maybe how can organizations implement similar support systems to help their employees thrive?
00:10:55 - 00:12:42
Kym
Well, I think education is at the top of the list, just understanding what you don't understand. And so for me, it was a bit of a natural progression because that empathy gene, if you will, plays a big part in leading anyone and certainly especially in the neurodivergent area. And so I think where I ended up having the most meaningful conversations really was with my team because it was second nature, I'd like to think, to me to be empathetic, but it was... My team really struggled certainly in the beginning with the idea that adding neurodivergent talent would somehow slow us down or make us... I think slow us down. Less successful I guess would be the word. So it was really helping them work through what it looked like to have... We had a team join us on a really large project, so it was helping the team understand that we would be successful and really letting them explore that for themselves, and there was a lot of education that we were able to gather, CAI was terrific in helping us with that, so that everyone felt comfortable. And honestly, it's just like anything, when the first day jitters wore off everybody became very comfortable. No one even used any labels after that, and that is where you know have success, right?
00:12:43 - 00:12:43
Anthony
Yeah.
00:12:43 - 00:12:48
Kym
When there are no labels anymore for the group.
00:12:49 - 00:13:16
Anthony
No, so... And thank you for that. We truly appreciate the kind words. What about other organizations? If they want to do something similar to this, the education piece being one, is there any other pieces of support that might help neurodivergent employees kind of move in a positive direction or even for the organization itself?
00:13:17 - 00:14:40
Kym
Well, I think one of the things that we've seen here in the last year or so is really the acknowledgement of neurodiversity within our employees or their families, and really it's been the community that we've started to create that people feel free to come and talk about it, talk about any accommodations that they need. Again, it goes back to taking the mystique off of it and really making it a non-starter for success in our organization. So I think we're seeing it in our schools. We have one of our executive leaders, Tim Morris, who's been instrumental outside of JLG in looking for opportunities for OSI, which is a company in our area, to employ neurodivergent talent, to create a path forward for people to find employment opportunities and for employers to embrace that as well. So I think it just keeps coming back to the same thing, just treat everybody the way you'd want to be treated.
00:14:41 - 00:14:52
Anthony
No, exactly. And I know Tim, he's a huge advocate and we certainly appreciate that, but I know JLG appreciates that as well, right?
00:14:53 - 00:14:54
Kym
Yeah.
00:14:54 - 00:15:42
Anthony
You're getting out in the community, you're talking to members of society about why we're doing things like this. It's not just a nice to have. There's a business case for this, productivity, efficiency, but also giving people an opportunity to show who the heck they are, so that's awesome and Tim and yourself are leading the narrative on that, so thank you. All right, Rex. So let's talk about strategies, my friend. So what strategies or initiatives have you personally found to be the most effective in supporting and I guess championing neurodivergent employees?
00:15:43 - 00:16:35
Rex
Well, I think you got to create an environment where they can thrive. Sometimes the old way used to think, "Well, I interviewed that person, but they didn't maintain good eye contact and they weren't very good at communicating and certain things like that." And I'm looking for someone who can do malware reverse engineering. I don't care if they can do eye contact. And I've even championed at the firm I was at before, and this was pre-COVID, I said, "You know, the pen testers would really do a better job if they could work from home. They've got higher speed internet there." And the people that I reported to were like, "No, they got to come to the office and wear a suit like everybody else." And I'm like, "But their job's different and they're working at night." But then COVID hit and we got our way. So that's the way you got to think about it. And if I can use a sports comparison, and, Anthony, you knew I was going to bring the Kansas City Chiefs in this, but-
00:16:36 - 00:16:37
Anthony
I did. I did indeed.
00:16:38 - 00:17:46
Rex
Patrick Mahomes is arguably one of the greatest quarterbacks that's played the game, and one thing he can do very well, he can move that ball down the field, he can get that ball down and sometimes score a touchdown, but when they're at the offensive... I'm sorry, at the defensive 25-yard line and it's fourth and 10, Mahomes isn't the guy I want on the field. I want to get the kicker out there, Harrison Butker, because Mahomes can do a lot of things but he can't kick a three-point field goal. I need the guy to do that, and you got to think of your neurodivergent team that way. Everybody has a role to play and they thrive when you put them in the jobs that they can do well, and that's what you've got to do. You've got to find people that are exceptional at pattern recognition, data analysis, pen testing. These skills don't require the ability to talk to a C-suite executive or to the board, but they're very crucial and they play a very big part of winning the cybersecurity battle and helping improving the cyber posture of an organization, so they're very important. You've got the other people that can talk to the executives, but you need those people that can kick that three-pointer.
00:17:47 - 00:18:21
Anthony
So I was hoping you wouldn't reference Kansas City Chiefs since I'm a Cowboys fan, but we haven't won a title in decades so that's okay. I'll let you have your moment to shine. All right, well, let's talk about leadership practices. Kym, how do you bring those together in a company? And you talked about empathy, effective communication, but how do you put that into your day-to-day management style? Maybe give us a couple examples and the positive aspect of that.
00:18:22 - 00:19:25
Kym
Yeah. So I think it's interesting to talk about interview skills because it starts right back there. And it's been interesting to see even my own personal paradigm shift because we talk about when you're hiring somebody fitting into an organization. We take that really seriously. In fact, in the analytics space, the deep technical skills are not quite as imperative as good problem-solving, being able to dig into a situation and look for anomalies or facts, so we often don't even look at the technical skills. We look for the fit skills, and very quickly when you're interviewing and you don't even necessarily realize it, you start looking at, "Are they making eye contact? How smooth were they with their answers? How long did they take before they answered? Did their answer go on way too long?" Which is my characteristic.
00:19:26 - 00:20:38
Kym
But you find that you're assessing those things, and I absolutely did. And I just got done with two sets of interviews for new hires. I really had to find myself thinking differently. And to Rex's point, we were hiring some fairly, in this case, technical skills, and I wanted to make sure that I wasn't judging them on the way they presented themselves, but rather what they had to offer our organization. So I think for me, that's a change and that's one of the areas that I'm the most interested in continuing for JLG is in our hiring practices, is making sure that we're hiring for the best people for the position and not one that fits some paradigm that we have of what an employee needs to look like, whether that's someone straight out of school or someone with significant years of experience. It's probably even more important when you look at people who you're hiring with eight, 10 years of experience. You have a certain expectation about their ability to present.
00:20:39 - 00:21:50
Kym
We even had some openings about a year ago where we asked them to do presentations, and I think about that now and I wonder, "Was I excluding people because their presentation skills maybe weren't going to shine through as well as what they had to offer us in the job itself?" So really putting down your guard around expectations and talking to the person. I think one of the things that I'm trying, and honestly I don't have an answer to this so I'll just share it, is how do you begin to understand... And I think this is as much on the individual's interviewing. How do you begin to find that balance of sharing who you are so that when you come to that interview you kind of remove those... I'm not sure if the word's expectations or you level set what expectations are so that both the hiring manager and the candidate have an opportunity to really know who each other is during that process.
00:21:51 - 00:23:10
Anthony
Yeah. No, I think those are great answers. We talk extensively about the interviewing to the onboarding. We want everybody to be proactive. We think businesses need to be more proactive, asking the individuals during the time like, "What do you need to be the best you can be when you get this job?" [inaudible 00:22:16] having somebody go, "Hey, listen, I need X, Y, and Z from an accommodation standpoint." As the business and the owner, you want them to be 100% productive as much as they can their first day. If you give them all those tools in advance, that just makes it a lot easier and that also ensures that that person knows that that business is open and accepting of who they are because you've already let it be known what potentially you need and sometimes what you don't need as well. So thank you. I appreciate that, Kym. Rex, so advice time. You're good at this. So what advice would you give to neurodivergent individuals who are looking to move up the food chain, advance on the ladder, but kind of feel uncertain about a few things? Is there different things they can do?
00:23:11 - 00:24:00
Rex
Sure. And I'm going to share a horror story a bit. Back in the early 2000s, I was being counseled on my communication by my boss and a member of the HR company I worked for or the company I worked for/ they knew I had Asperger's, which we now call autism spectrum disorder, and one of the things I had shared while they were counseling me on that is that I don't always pick up on subtleties when speaking with others. Now, I'll never forget this, but the HR lady looked at me right in the eyes and said, "That's alarming." I mean, that just struck me like, "You don't get it. You don't get what being neurodivergent is." And what I did from that is I took that as a learning experience and became a student of body language and how people speak, and that learning has served me well.
00:24:01 - 00:24:57
Rex
So the first thing I would say is you're going to take some hits. You're going to take some hits from people that don't have empathy and don't understand where you're coming from. It hurts, but learn from that and pick yourself up. It's always important to pick yourself and dust yourself off. Another thing I'd say, find a mentor who can guide you along. As I talked about, Ron Ferguson was really good for early in my career. There's organizations out there that can do that for you. The Diana Initiative is one I'm actively involved in that helps neurodivergent people get into jobs, help them with coaching and skills to help find IT and cyber roles. As you know, CAI has a neurodivergent program, and there are others out there that really are really trying to help out. And it's not charity, it's just really trying to help you get your career. And we've reached a time in our society where it's okay to be neurodivergent, it's okay to talk about those things, and it's nice to be in that time.
00:24:58 - 00:25:39
Anthony
Yeah, no, I appreciate that answer. I appreciate your vulnerability and kind of giving us the lowdown earlier in your career of people maybe not just getting it, but hopefully that kind of moves the needle a little bit in the future here. And I think we got a couple minutes left here. We've got about four, so I'm going to give you a minute to answer on each of this or for each of you. So the question is, and we'll start with Kym, it's only one question, what's your vision for the future of neurodiversity in the workplace?
00:25:40 - 00:26:35
Kym
The easiest answer is it's not relevant, and what I mean by that is that we take off the... Let me say it this way. I always worry about saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing, and getting to a place where we're all comfortable together and that it no longer becomes a topic of conversation. And I'm not trying to take away from it, but just to say that we recognize the uniquenesses in all of us. I use my hands way too much. I've been sitting on them most of the time. And so it's recognizing that I use my hands and somebody else does this and that what we're there to do is do the best for whatever company we work at, so I think that's what I'd like to see.
00:26:36 - 00:26:40
Anthony
All right. Awesome. And Rex, last question to you, my friend.
00:26:41 - 00:27:29
Rex
So I'm going to close with a real life example. So if you get the chance, google Vice Admiral Nick Hine. He's in the British Navy. That's a three-star admiral. He was categorized as being blunt, challenging, and difficult, and he got diagnosed with autism late in his career. But even though he was blunt, challenging, and difficult, his ability to think differently made him a very successful strategist for the British Navy to the fact that he rose to a three-star admiral and one of the top officers, and there's a great article on him. So keep in mind that there's opportunities, there's a job for you with your skill and your capabilities, and as we embrace these differences, we're going to see a lot more opportunities from neurodivergent people as well as see more businesses succeed for engaging them.
00:27:30 - 00:28:05
Anthony
That's awesome. That's a great note to end on. And I was watching you drink out of your Jayhawk mug. I'm a Syracuse fan, so go orange. Well, to both of you, unfortunately our time here today is over. I'd like to thank Kym, you, and Rex, you, for joining us today and sharing your insights with us. It's been an absolute pleasure chatting with you both. I'd like to also thank our audience for your attention. And later we're going to be sending everybody that attended a recording of this event to share with your colleagues or peers.
[All speaker videos become a bit smaller and the following copy is enlarged in the bottom left-hand corner: "Learn more at www.cai.io".]
00:28:06 - 00:28:38
Anthony
And in addition we're going to be sharing a post-event survey for you to share with us your thoughts about today's events. Please fill that out if you can and share back with us, and thank you in advance for that. And then in the meantime, if you're interested in learning more about CAI Neurodiverse Solutions or you know somebody that is, make sure you visit our website at cai.io and fill out our contact form. We hope you've enjoyed kicking off NDEAM with our event here today and I thank you for joining us, and have a great rest of your day.
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Businesses that put the resources into upskilling their neurodivergent colleagues have much to gain, especially when it comes to leadership. In recognition of National Disability Employment Awareness Month, watch this on-demand LinkedIn Live Event to hear 2 guests share their experiences as neurodivergent leaders in the workplace. If your company is interested in working with CA Neurodiverse Solutions, contact us today.
